675.cc • Triumph 675 Forum

Furious with the NHS

Discussion in 'Rants & Raves' started by Edski675, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. It's only extortion when force is used to put/keep the extorter in a position where they are able to abuse it. You're right though, rewards in a competition free environment won't work. Rewards should be happy paying customers that choose to use your services becaue you offer them the product they need at the price they want. IMO.
     
  2. D41

    D41

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    So the current system doesn't work, and by your own reckoning a 'reward driven system' wouldn't either....what would you suggest as a third and totally new alternative??
     
  3. Some info for those so keen on private healthcare / insurance:
    - the consultants working privately generally also work nhs, so its the same from that perspective.
    - private insurance companies will limit you about who you can see, where, & what for. its not a blank cheque.
    - if the company wont pay for what/who/where you want, you're back on the nhs (or, the dreaded nhs saves you in your hour of need)
    - if you have a problem with the treatment / operation, you get sent to a&e or transfered to a nhs hosp (again, the dreaded nhs saving you)
    - private hospitals are often staffed by 1 doctor covering varoius / all specialties eg overnight, whereas nhs generally has more juniors specialists available
    - nursing staff is generally no better, and often worse
    - people have been known to be found dead & cold in single rooms, because nobody has checked on them for hours.
    - the above issues allows private systems to function at profit whilst burdening the nhs with the effort, time & cost of the clean up.

    The service provided by the nhs is still considered world class, even by those overseas, despite what some may think. Pioneering, even.
    The costs of the nhs were about 10% that of germany, france, etc, let alone usa, last i saw.
    So, we get quite good value for money.
    Some hosps had thought of giving the patients a "virtual bill" to show what their treatment / hosp stay cost, but dont due to the public freaking out at the costs.

    If you get rid of the nhs, you have to realistically think of how to deal with these problems.

    myself, i'm happy knowing that i can get the same care as anybody else, no matter who i am, what i do, or what i earn.

    the grass is always greener...
     
  4. David

    David

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    Triplex people who work in the public sector are not parasitic they are working as hard or harder than those in the private sector for a fraction of the pay to ensure that health, education, defence and municipal services are available to all not just the most well off


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  5. D41

    D41

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    Edited: CBA
     
  6. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    Yes Triplex, my point: If the only way we had access to health care (without the blank cheque approach) was to purchase health insurance, then we would effectively be “forced” to do so and thereby simply line the pockets of an entire financial system & hierarchy that would in no way serve our interests of improving the healthcare service.

    If I thought I knew, then maybe I’d be a politician. Politicians are people who always think “they know” best. Being the dumb No Mark that I am, my best guess is that we should try to be pleased with what we have, rather than busy ourselves criticising it. But hey! What do I know?

    Excellent post Panteleimon, made my points (but properly :lol: ).
    The excerpt I have taken is not an urban myth. My employer have me covered by BUPA, ( :roll: yes I know, but let’s not get distracted from "my opinion”) and a couple of years back it became necessary for me to have some remedial surgery for an old war wound.
    Excellent service, no waiting lists and apparently the “leading specialist” to perform the operations. However when I had to return about 10 days later for a bit of “tidying up” I was booked in at the flashy reception, wheeled through the BUPA hospital to my private room, put on a couch & doped up ready for the procedure and left alone. Eleven hours later (and only because my then GF came looking for me and insisted she wouldn’t go away until she knew where I was) did they find me. Some ***** administrator had ticked the wrong box, or put the wrong date or similar (I never got to find out) and so I simply got forgotten.
    That is not an urban myth, you could even say it's "675.cc Gospel" due to my username. ;)
     
  7. martin675

    martin675

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    Iv been undergoing treatment at a nhs hospital for the last 6 months almost daily and i must say the care i have received has been faultless by all concerned consultants, jr doctors, nurses, cleaners. I had the choice to go to BUPA hospitals but was told it would pretty much be like a B&B as the nhs hospital had much more specialist staff and facilities so would have to go there everyday. The costs of medicines and treatments is outrageous and without a nhs system i would not have been able to afford treatment i think its when serious illness comes about you realise the benefits. Not sure iv really got the gist of this thread but the nhs isn't all bad IMO


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  8. David

    David

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    I agree with you Martin I spent a few weeks in hospital a couple of years ago and the care I received was excellent. If I would have gone private the same Drs would have provided the same care in a nicer environment for many thousands of pounds. Obviously there are issues with the current system and people sometimes get a raw deal but I imagine bupa get a lot of complaints too


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  9. You're missing the point by looking at 'private' medical as it is today. Today we don't have a free market. Private organisations are heavily regulated, as is the pharma industry. Also there is a state provided health service which is funded by money stolen from the public at the point of a gun. To say that private is bad because it burdens the NHS with cleanup costs is ridiculous when it is the state that FORCES it's citizens to pay for it.
    Besides, you see all of those negatve examples occuring in NHS hospitals too. I've witnessed/experienced them.

    I assume you meant 10% LESS than GErmany/France, etc? :mrgreen:

    As long as a compulsory NHS exists alongside any private sector, then you cannot make a fair comparison because it's not a level playing field, and the incentives aren't there for the sector to flourish naturally to the point where needs of the public are satisfied.

    Beyond that you still cannot make a truely fair comaprison until the government stops interfering in all areas. For example, take minumum wage laws & employer contributions. The reason people struggle to find employment is because the state uses violence to prevent potential employers form creating jobs. No minimum wage == more people with jobs == more people able to afford health care in a flourishing economy, uninhibited by state interference, that actually creates value instead of just skimming off the top of the giant global ponzi, centered in London, which currently contributes over 600% of GDP to the UK's total debt, bringing it to a total of 1 thousand percent, making the UK the most endebted nation on the planet.
     
  10. Every time an evolutionary step takes place there are winners and there are losers. Currently there are millions of people that are totally dependant on the state and it's socialist policies for most or all of their income. Millions hooked on welfare, and millions hooked on public sector jobs, for which there is no price discovery mechanism. All of these people, should we take an evolutionary step towards liberty, morality, justice and decency, stand to become losers. Now these people may be in this situation through choice, or circumstance, but the fact is that they are latched firmly onto the body politic and are so heavily dependant that they will fight to protect it.

    There is some obvious cognitive dissonance here the same people will criticise the government for it's lack of representation while simultaneously supporting it, and legitimizing it, in the belief that somehow people aren't capable of taking care of themselves and each other without waving a gun infront of everyone's face.

    The biggest impedance to political (if you go in for that type of thing) reform/evolution is the parasite class that is firmly hooked, through choice or circumstance, into the fleshy underbelly - bloated with the fruits of a monopoly on violence - of the state.
     
  11. Triplex it's a wonder you go out with all these gun toting government officials kicking in your door for everything.

    Sometimes its good to just enjoy being alive and healthy.

    Got to go bin men are here with their guns for my rubbish.
     
  12. David

    David

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    Public sector workers are no more parasitic that private sector workers - both rely on others for survival you have warped your own argument beyond any sense by using it to attack people simply because they are employ via tax revenue. What you are talking about isn't evolution it's a return to the situation we had 100 years ago - not a time known for liberty. To equate those working in the public sector to those living on benefits is just an incoherent argument


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  13. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    :lol: Very droll BDTD ;) (Point made well IMO)

    Milton, you've excelled yourself.! I feel a little "left out" that you didn't seem to point out the errors of my thinking??

    Maybe I should try to make my points a little more highbrow.? I’m maybe not as smart as David or panteleimon. :oops: But therefore surely putting me “on the right track” shouldn’t present a problem if your logic is sound.?

    David’s concerns for our return our previous “comedy of errors” system are well founded IMHO.
     
  14. D41

    D41

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    That's true to an extent, David - BUT....governments don't produce anything, they simply provide services, infra-structure, education, etc. and they do it all with fiscal wealth garnered through taxation....taxation through employment, through business, through anything a regular Joe Public does in his everyday normal life he is taxed, from the moment he flushes the toilet in the morning. All this wealth is used to fund the public sector, and yet it still manages to run at a deficit...this is only due to sub-par employment performance at some level or another, and to some degree or another whether it be through mis-management, or through others means, the public sector still under-performs when compared to the private sector.
     
  15. David

    David

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    You make it sound like public sector workers don't pay tax or contribute services without which the private sector couldn't operate. If public sector workers didn't pay tax it would be right to call them parasites, as they do that's just neo-con bullshit.
    As far as the public sector underperforming and private sector not have we already forgotten the bank collapse? Sub prime etc? Surely that's where the under performing parasites are???


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  16. David

    David

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    Also having worked for the nhs and for big private sector firms like Fujitsu I would say the difference is not in staff performance at all but whether the organisation has massive overinflated profits to buffer against staff fuck ups, the productivity, in my experience, is similar


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  17. D41

    D41

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    The bank collapse had as much to do with the public sector as the private because at that level government the two become intertwined. I'm not making it sound like public sector workers don't pay tax at all...if I had wanted to, then that's what I would have written.
    Frankly I think you're taking this a bit personally, which was not the intention.
     
  18. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    FWIW I believe that it’s basically people who under-perform, not necessarily systems.!

    As long as there are freeloaders, able & content to sit by & "swing the lead" while others work their asses off for the benefit of the end user, neither system can be efficient.

    Such is human nature that this is unlikely to be resolved any time soon. So radically changing the current approach will probably not solve anything, just make the failings appear as different symptoms.
     
  19. David

    David

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    I agree with that, there's plenty of freeloaders in both the private and public sector


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  20. If you can't see the gun then you've either got your eyes closed or you're deluding yourself bcause it's nicer than the truth.

    Try not paying your taxes, and resist with the very minimal level of force needed to not be kidnapped. When a gun is drawn, which it will be, you'll then acquiesce and proceed directly to jail.
     

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